Forums

  • I initially wanted to make this a blog post, but due to its not-so-optimal comments system, I am making this a forum thread. There are lots of blog-like ramblings going on, most of them being personal thoughts NOT written on behalf of the Oberin team. Please keep that in mind when reading it.

    Oberin has been running 0.18 public beta for over four years. Over this time, players got rich, experienced, and new tools have been added to their shelves to fight the hazards of the lands. A few higher level monsters have been introduced, and magical creatures have been slightly upped (or should I say, overpowered and then toned down).

    There is one thing, however, that many players and GMs have noticed, and that is that the recent updates gave too much to the players, making the game a bit too easy for the average player who knows what they're doing.

    Now, GMs always want it harder for the players. It's understandable. It's not cruelty, it's not rejoicing in seeing the players struggle and die (unless your name begins with Ch..), it's a plain matter of interest. When a GM spawns a camp of monsters, they ultimately want it to be destroyed and deliver some loot, but what's the point if everything goes down without a fight? While some players will always enjoy being able to walk anywhere in the wild alone, crushing everything they encounter to pieces, the game will ultimately be more fun if "outside" gets associated with "dangerous" again.

    There are of course a lot of measures we have been thinking about that would increase the difficulty, from the ever-so-slightly resistance increase to the very punishing armor restrictions.
    It's never easy to make the game harder. You are bound to see complaints arising in every direction and cries for unfairness, no matter how positive you are the measures taken are good in the long run. When one part of the game gets too easy, this part gets boring. Look at how money is valued in Oberin and you will get what I mean.

    Going too far in that direction isn't good either. Sure, we can make the monsters so strong that no one dares leaving town again (hello 018.4 brackens), but that's not what we want. What we want, is to hear "Aborek? Yickes... Should be fun!" instead of "Oh look a demo, let's take them to the bottom level!".

    Challenging. It's the key word that we are trying to reach when we talk about the difficulty of Oberin. Hard is silly. Easy is boring. Challenging is the key. And challenging is a challenge when the level scope of the players is as broad as it is now.

    One of the solutions to attain that is a wipe (oh my god I said the word), and that's not going to happen for some time. The other solution is to apply a set of new rules, that will have the players think a bit before leaving bank alone, healing a partner whose health bar is still 90% full, reading a book while paralyzing a dragon over and again, or even depleting their stamina bar on that harpie because the sound it makes is annoying.

    Balance is a very touchy feature to play with. The slightest chance to a class' offensive or defensive power is bound to create a hearty of reaction of the players, the unhappy ones usually making much more noise. That is why most of the MMORPGs have a test server where players can try stuff to their heart's content without risking loosing anything and give constructive feedback about their experience. In Oberin, we don't have that luxury. We don't have the time, material, and manpower to set such a system in place. The best we can do is have Jinker's test server up and running for a couple of hours every once in a while, and that's not enough for what we're talking about here.

    Still, these are big changes we are talking about. Probably bigger than the special attacks deal. Some of them I would love to see added to the game, but am not even sure they would work at all with the current system. So, while we can't try these things out on a separate test server, why not try them on the official server?

    Here is the whole idea I have in mind when I mention "Hard Mode Oberin". The test would ideally last a couple of weeks, potentially stretching to no more than a month. Instead of spending months adding features, tweaking them, removing them, and so on, the server would, from day one, incorporate all the new rules, for the players to test them while the GMs watch over. Players would be able to give their feedback, for us to see what works, what needs tweaking, and what needs to be plain removed.

    A few things to consider :

    1. [
    2. :323e9b2c72]We would still be on the official server, which means whatever happens, actually happens. No rollback, no saving of the character sheets prior to the test, if you loose something, you loose it. That is part of the game. I am confident the potential loss will no prevent our best players from going all out and testing those new features.

      [
    3. :323e9b2c72]The towns would always be safe, no matter what happens. Players who do not want to participate in the test are not forced to stay offline for its duration. Just stay in town, craft, and ask ghosts who pass by you how's it going outside (Hint, it's going oooOOOoooOOOooo).

      [
    4. :323e9b2c72]While no major RTQ would happen during this time, out of fairness (I'm sure some people can see the irony here), GMs might decide to spawn a brigand camp or stuff like that, to test the system in RTQ conditions.

      [
    5. :323e9b2c72]The timeframe of the test would be clear for everyone. As in, "The new rules will be kicked in on XX/XX". We would try to warn everyone about the end of the test as soon as we can.


    So what's on the menu? Here are, for the moment, the new rules we have in mind. Please note that this (incomplete and messy, apologies) list is bound to change before the test actually begins, if it takes place at all. As I warned beforehand, some of these rules are very, very harsh. I realize it, but am posting them anyway because I believe they would bring a welcome change to a stagnant part of the gameplay. Do not hesitate to already give your feedbacks, but keep in mind this is all conditional here. Stay constructive!

    1. [
    2. :323e9b2c72]Using a special attack will very slightly damage your currently equipped weapon/shield. GM weapons will last much longer than regular weapons if special attacks are constantly used.

      [
    3. :323e9b2c72]Monsters are once again be able to bump a stealthy rogue that is one tile away from them (minus the old random bump bug, of course).

      [
    4. :323e9b2c72]Monsters now totally ignore ladders and cave entrances. You can no longer ladder poof them. What's more, if you lure a monster to a ladder/cave entrance, they are likely to attempt to block them, preventing you from escaping at all.

      [
    5. :323e9b2c72]Chests no longer spawn at definite places in dungeons.

      [
    6. :323e9b2c72]Attacking a monster from a place where they have no chance at all to strike back will result in a guaranteed miss/fizzle. Same goes for healing or defensive spells. Water is a way to get relatively safe, not to attack/heal unharmed.

      [
    7. :323e9b2c72]Only Rangers can use a bow while moving. Other classes have to stand perfectly still if they want to have a chance to hit anything.

      [
    8. :323e9b2c72]The Stamina regeneration mechanics have been totally revamped. Here is how it works :

      1. [
      2. :323e9b2c72]You will not recover any stamina if hostile creatures are on your screen.
        [
      3. :323e9b2c72]You will not recover any stamina if an offscreen creature is targeting you.
        [
      4. :323e9b2c72]Once your are clear of hostiles again, your Stamina will go up, very slowly for the first few seconds, and progressively fasten as long as no hostile creature appears on your screen.
        [
      5. :323e9b2c72]Rogues edge still allows them to regenerate Stamina all the time, abeit very slowly if hostile creatures are about.

      [
    9. :323e9b2c72]Some classes will be penalized if they wear heavy armor, namely :

      1. [
      2. :323e9b2c72]Rogues' stealth level will be drastically reduced for every piece of plate they wear.
        [
      3. :323e9b2c72]Rogues' stealth level will be greatly reduced for every piece of mail they wear.
        [
      4. :323e9b2c72]Rangers' archery level will be reduced for every piece of plate they wear.
        [
      5. :323e9b2c72]Rangers cannot use bows while moving if they wear a single piece of plate.
        [
      6. :323e9b2c72]Rangers' crit chance with a bow is drastically reduced if they wear a single piece of plate.

      [
    10. :323e9b2c72]ALL classes will suffer a small speed penalty for every piece of plate armor they wear, based on their strength.

      [
    11. :323e9b2c72]Druids' base strength was reduced.

      [
    12. :323e9b2c72]Lesser Defensive Stance reduces your attack speed by 50%.

      [
    13. :323e9b2c72]Greater Defensive Stance reduces your attack speed by 75%.

      [
    14. :323e9b2c72]Rage was removed. Ring of brute strength now has a totally new use, as well as a durability component. Fighters have a new "ultimate" special attack. (pending)

      [
    15. :323e9b2c72]Each healing spell cast on someone has a slight chance to make any creature attacking them turn to the healer.

      [
    16. :323e9b2c72]Monsters get more and more resistant to paralysis every time a "paralyze" spell is cast on them. The resistance goes up to the point where they ultimately become totally immune to paralysis. This bonus resistance gradually vanishes over time.

    That's all for now, more to come later. Or not.
     

  • I do love a good challenge and I'm looking forward to this one should you decide to go ahead with it. Thanks for the update cheesey
     



  • So what's on the menu? Here are, for the moment, the new rules we have in mind. Please note that this (incomplete and messy, apologies) list is bound to change before the test actually begins, if it takes place at all. As I warned beforehand, some of these rules are very, very harsh. I realize it, but am posting them anyway because I believe they would bring a welcome change to a stagnant part of the gameplay. Do not hesitate to already give your feedbacks, but keep in mind this is all conditional here. Stay constructive!


    1. [
    2. :3389dcfa1e]Using a special attack will very slightly damage your currently equipped weapon/shield. GM weapons will last much longer than regular weapons if special attacks are constantly used.

      HMM... I SEE WHERE ITS GOING BUT MAYBE THERE IS SOME OTHER WAY TO MAKE SPECIAL ATTACKS WEAKER? AND IF YOU ARE CHANGING THE STAMINA RULES, THAT SHOULD ALONE BE ENOUGH FOR TEST START. I WOULD ABANDON THIS IDEA - FOR NOW.

      [
    3. :3389dcfa1e]Monsters are once again be able to bump a stealthy rogue that is one tile away from them (minus the old random bump bug, of course).

      AGREE.

      [
    4. :3389dcfa1e]Monsters now totally ignore ladders and cave entrances. You can no longer ladder poof them. What's more, if you lure a monster to a ladder/cave entrance, they are likely to attempt to block them, preventing you from escaping at all.

      FINALLY
    5. CLAPS


    6. [
    7. :3389dcfa1e]Chests no longer spawn at definite places in dungeons.

      FINALLY
    8. CLAPS


    9. [
    10. :3389dcfa1e]Attacking a monster from a place where they have no chance at all to strike back will result in a guaranteed miss/fizzle. Same goes for healing or defensive spells. Water is a way to get relatively safe, not to attack/heal unharmed.

      HMMM... I AGREE FOR THE TEST PORPOSE. ALTHOUGH NOT GETTING ANY SUCCESSES WOULD BE ENOUGH FOR ME. BECAUSE MISSING ALL TIME OR FIZZLING DOESNT MAKE SO MUCH SENSE.

      [
    11. :3389dcfa1e]Only Rangers can use a bow while moving. Other classes have to stand perfectly still if they want to have a chance to hit anything.

      AGREE.

      [
    12. :3389dcfa1e]The Stamina regeneration mechanics have been totally revamped. Here is how it works :

      1. [
      2. :3389dcfa1e]You will not recover any stamina if hostile creatures are on your screen.
        [
      3. :3389dcfa1e]You will not recover any stamina if an offscreen creature is targeting you.
        [
      4. :3389dcfa1e]Once your are clear of hostiles again, your Stamina will go up, very slowly for the first few seconds, and progressively fasten as long as no hostile creature appears on your screen.
        [
      5. :3389dcfa1e]Rogues edge still allows them to regenerate Stamina all the time, abeit very slowly if hostile creatures are about.

        AGREE. MAINLY LIMITS RANGERS (CONSIDERING CURRENT MECHANICS). I LIKE IT AS RANGER.


      [
    13. :3389dcfa1e]Some classes will be penalized if they wear heavy armor, namely :

      1. [
      2. :3389dcfa1e]Rogues' stealth level will be drastically reduced for every piece of plate they wear.

        FINALLY
      3. CLAPS


      4. [
      5. :3389dcfa1e]Rogues' stealth level will be greatly reduced for every piece of mail they wear.

        FINALLY
      6. CLAPS


      7. [
      8. :3389dcfa1e]Rangers' archery level will be reduced for every piece of plate they wear.

        FINALLY
      9. CLAPS
      10. THIS ALSO ADDS THE SENSE TO BEING SWORD RANGER LIKE MYSELF
      11. CLAPS MORE


      12. [
      13. :3389dcfa1e]Rangers cannot use bows while moving if they wear a single piece of plate.

        FINALLY
      14. CLAPS


      15. [
      16. :3389dcfa1e]Rangers' crit chance with a bow is drastically reduced if they wear a single piece of plate.

        FINALLY
      17. CLAPS



      [
    14. :3389dcfa1e]ALL classes will suffer a small speed penalty for every piece of plate armor they wear, based on their strength.

      FINALLY
    15. CLAPS


    16. [
    17. :3389dcfa1e]Druids' base strength was reduced.

      AWESOME
    18. CLAPS


    19. [
    20. :3389dcfa1e]Lesser Defensive Stance reduces your attack speed by 50%.

      NICELY DONE.

      [
    21. :3389dcfa1e]Greater Defensive Stance reduces your attack speed by 75%.

      NICELY DONE.

      [
    22. :3389dcfa1e]Rage was removed. Ring of brute strength now has a totally new use, as well as a durability component. Fighters have a new "ultimate" special attack. (pending)

      [
    23. :3389dcfa1e]Each healing spell cast on someone has a slight chance to make any creature attacking them turn to the healer.

      KIND OF LIKE THREAT SYSTEM. KIND OF. ANYWAY I LIKE IT.

      [
    24. :3389dcfa1e]Monsters get more and more resistant to paralysis every time a "paralyze" spell is cast on them. The resistance goes up to the point where they ultimately become totally immune to paralysis. This bonus resistance gradually vanishes over time.


    VERY NICE. *CLAPS*

    That's all for now, more to come later. Or not.

    3389dcfa1e="Stefan"

    ADD:

    * gold dropped from monsters and chests will be drastically reduced, in some cases zeroed (harpies, spiders, elementals - why did they carry it anyway and why?); getting gold is too easy

    * amount of bags in woods will be reduced (RoPs for 3-5k? really?)

    * chance of getting magical item from chests will be reduced

    * profit made from crafting will be reduced



    All around I will want to be back and play after the test will start. Seems like things will finally not be boring and easy? suprised

    Of course it would still be nice to finish all the balancing, change crafting, add few things here and there and wipe... Yes, balancing and changed crafting and few more skills and spells will take long anyway. But after all of this is done, Im looking forward the wipe....

    Anyway this is a good start.
     

  • I dig it, man. Welcome the opportunity to offer feedback. Look forward to a more dangerous world.

    Having a ranger, I fully support the proposed changes to the class. While having took full advantage of wearing the plate while using the bow, the plate/chain limitations will be a welcomed change. (Radu and others were right in calling for this.) Too offset that, I hope a bump up in power will accompany these changes.

    Will reserve any further judgement until experiencing the changes.

    Thanks to all involved.
     

  • Davon said:

    * gold dropped from monsters and chests will be drastically reduced, in some cases zeroed (harpies, spiders, elementals - why did they carry it anyway and why?); getting gold is too easy

    --
    These creatures carry very little gold in the overall scheme and barely pay for your cost in potions - I think this will hurt the new player more than anyone else.

    The money problem may be somewhat corrected just by the proposed changes above - the no laddering and chests spawning at different areas instead of predictable ones (thats how I intrepreted this).
     

  • First of all, yes, please, make the game harder. Way harder! As it is now, the "floruit" of a character is around level 9, and after that the game is pretty much beaten. Some of the ideas to be tested look pretty cool (e.g. armour restrictions), others look less cool. I guess that's the point of getting them tested, after all. This is just to bring up a few points that I find important for the discussion, and that I think have been neglected in some ways in the last update.

    I spent months being afraid of walking to the portal alone. I'd love that feeling again. But once again, in a more or less sensible way. It should be possible for a player with a minimum of brains to walk somewhere (to meet a party, for an rtq, whatever). "Somewhere" doesn't have to be the center of the TM, though. As things are right now, as long as you know how to run, you're fine. I'd rather see creatures that can't be outrun, for example. Or more gapers!

    Another thing is flexibility between the conditions in which the game should ideally be played, and what one can actually do (or wants to do). I mean... Ok, creatures may randomly target the cleric. Fine. Parties will start having even more clerics, just in case. (Three clerics in the ID is already overkill!!) Then the lag will be immense, it will be impossible to tell friends from foes on screen, and no one will hunt unless there are twenty people online.
    In the same way that Oberin has room enough for role-players and ooc-ers, it should have room enough for gipsy families and hermits. Some areas could be only possible with 6-8 people (sorry, I still think that more than 8 is almost impracticable), where others could be done with two? There will always be the loonies who'll try to go to Aborek alone anyway. And that's a cool thing? Give people challenges to solve, but also give them the possibility to solve them.

    Speaking or which, one thing is power-levelling, the other is to penalize investment. If someone has BS16, or RM20, or lockpicking 25, that means that they spent a lot of time "working hard" for it. And it's normal to get it's benefits, and to use them in group hunts. Yes, the RM example again: it's not about getting bolted all day to level it up, it's about making it possible to have a strategy and priorities of who kills what, and what is to be killed first. It drives me nuts to get cursed by a PE because the twenty plates on my screen are killing one bracken. Is this a hard game? No, it's pretty easy, it only happens out of dumbness. Which brings me to the next point. Or main point, even.

    Hard is different than random. Maybe it's me, but I like to solve puzzles. To think about how to go hunting on such and such area and define a strategy for that is a challenge. And it's nice when challenges can be won after a while. Even if after 5000 attempts. But if there's nothing to solve, and things just happen randomly... well, then there's no point in learning, or even thinking for a second. It's nice and cool to have unpredicted events. It's not nice and cool not to be able to choose a group because everything that happens is unpredictable.
    I abhor dragon hunts theses days. As someone said, it's "insert a coin, take a dragon." But I am really not sure the solution is to make it impossible to keep the creature targeting the plates. Or if it's going to be that way, then there must be a way to assure that the robes can survive one bite sometimes. I don't know. Make hiding higher? I really have no clue.

    *goes corporativist and mentions her own class again*

    And finally, my immediate concern: wizards. The only two things I see here are "you cannot hit creatures with a weapon unless you stand still" and "para will be (even) less effective." I won't whine about the former - I don't get the point of it, and I think that running is an art, but fine, weapons are not their primary means anyway. As for the latter... *cough* I might be wrong, but it seems that this is suggested because of dragon hunts. Let's be frank: para only works on most dragons other than ice if there's more than one wizard. It practically doesn't work on golems, and for most creatures it is less effective than backstab. Make para weaker, and if they still get invited to go, they'll spam-cast weaken and clumsy. Is that what the point? Why not adding a damaging spell to be used against high level creatures then? With the consequent risks, of course. Or... why not adding high level creatures more robe oriented, but that's another story. Basically, yes, please, make the dullest hunts impossible. If the point is to farm money, then crafting fulfils that role just fine. "Robes against the wall" and "robes on water" is usually far too safe to be called a hunt, even. Just do so by making it more interesting, and risky, not by making spells more useless. Or, ultimately, they'll just stand by watching (or reading a book) until the dragon can be paralysed again.
    (By the way, why are the gapers in Duldrus always so far away from the golem hunts?)

    Anyway, this is all going to be tested, and even though players "never like it," I do find it quite nice that we get to discuss it. In the end, it all amounts to what we understand by the word "balance."
     

  • Yes I know my name starts with a Ch...

    As the update before was pretty much a "plate" update, this seems to me like a recognition, that many of the changes have deeply unbalanced the classes and an attempt to counteract this.

    I think this is much needed and am happy to anticipate the challenges that might be to come one day. Especially dragon and golem hunts have turned into much of a routine ("insert coin") and I see that many of the changes face that.

    Comparing para and backstab, I agree with what Cassandra mentioned, cutting down para is a bit cheap, since it is almost powerless against a good backstab anyway. Then again, I like the idea of having players think about *when* they use a certain spell and not use them inflationary.

    Same for clerics. It makes sense, that a dragon turns on them, if you view it as a sensory action, the dragon hears the cleric's spell incantation, thus potential enemy. Same should work for druids and wizards though - any spell they use.

    I am looking forward to see those new ideas in action. Thank you for your great work.
     

  • A thought on crafting and money: I've always longed for success from repairs. If I got more success from repairing than creating the items. I probably wouldn't make so many and thusly have less money. I'd probably gain successes at a slower rate though...
     

  • Bring it on! Any change that makes the game more challenging is a good thing, in my mind. I't's gotten way too predictable, to the point where I haven't even played in weeks. If we have some real predicaments to work our way out of, it will make for a better game all around.

    Razbhat
     

  • Then again, I like the idea of having players think about *when* they use a certain spell and not use them inflationary.

    Same for clerics. It makes sense, that a dragon turns on them, if you view it as a sensory action, the dragon hears the cleric's spell incantation, thus potential enemy. Same should work for druids and wizards though - any spell they use.

    e92c241ab7="hamartjana"

    Just clarifying: I agree that it makes things more interesting if everyone runs a risk, and mostly if everyone has to think about what they're doing. But it's cooler if it is within reason (or possibility of), and not just arbitrary. It's cooler if by the virtue of immense wits, one can find a way to turn a hunt into a ballet, rather than a mess. smile
     

Moderator(s): Ariki, arikitest, Jinker