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Post subject: Bumping: bug or feature?
 Posted: Feb 01, 2008 - 02:45 PM
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Respectable
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 213
Status: Offline
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When stealthing behind a Skell (and other creatures) the creature "bumps", breaking the stealth, even when busy fighting in another direction and no visible change of direction.
The picture illustrates the situation.
Is it a bug, or a feature designed to hinder the backstab? |
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Post subject: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 01, 2008 - 07:03 PM
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Royalty
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
Posts: 1589
Location: Who likes Maine anyway?
Status: Offline
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| I've always figured it was to hinder. It's never been a big deal for me since I just usually stealth again. The way I see it, in a fight, there's always a chance that the monster would come close to an area next to it, which would allow it to bump into you. |
_________________
"The Mirith Vanguard: We go until your sides hurt"
"We just spent 10 million on a a way to turn a character ginger, we can buy you a chest" - Iceane
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Post subject: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 06, 2008 - 02:04 AM
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Respectable
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 213
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Thanks for your answer, although I didnt quite understand it. Of course I was expecting an answer from the Gods of Oberin, who have the tables :
Law->table[bumper]
Anyway here comes another, that maybe should go the Humor section.
This brac is so excited by the kill that bumps me!
Now this goes a bit too far as "feature" |
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| A excited bracken bumps an unsuspecting rogue |
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Post subject: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 06, 2008 - 08:43 PM
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Royalty
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
Posts: 1589
Location: Who likes Maine anyway?
Status: Offline
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| It could've been the sheep? |
_________________
"The Mirith Vanguard: We go until your sides hurt"
"We just spent 10 million on a a way to turn a character ginger, we can buy you a chest" - Iceane
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Post subject: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 06, 2008 - 11:36 PM
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Respectable
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 213
Status: Offline
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| Nasrith wrote: |
| It could've been the sheep? |
Nope.
As a matter of fact it was a designed experiment. No other creatures around. The screeenshot was taken during the bolt and the bump happened at that moment. You can try it yourself: stealth next to a brac while it's fighting someone else. A brac, a skell, maybe even a sheep.
Apparently this explains some myterious fails of the backstab, that look like you are not behind while everything was done correctly. By fail I mean not "backstab failed" but a simple, but hard to explain, "You are no longer stealthed" like if you're not attacking directly behind.
With the implication that you can't backstab that creature anymore.
All this implies that the creature tries to move in another direction (even bracs!) but nothing is visible on screen.
Looks like a bug, smells like a bug, tastes like a bug! Imagine if I stepped on it!
And still no news from the Gods of Oberin! |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 09, 2008 - 06:13 PM
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Respectable
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 213
Status: Offline
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Just like my doubt, bug or feature, I got an answer from Jinker (it's a feature), that I was unable to precise the nature: lightness or contempt.
Players "bump" into a stealthing rogue when they try to occupy it's place while stealthing. A rogue bumps into any creature (except GMs) when he tries to occupy their place.
The feature here seems to be that creatures decide on their move, an easy decision for bracken, and at least another invisible move just to bump a nearby rogue (with some possible uses against hiding).
What seems an unintended consequence (and thereby a bug) is that sometimes the backstab doesnt work (different from failing) making it very hard for the new rogue to understand the rules and adding a new layer of failure to the existing two probabilities of failing.
These are:
a correct attempt at backstabbing might fail. A message comes saying "backstab failed" with a far from negligible probability, much higher then any "fizzles".
The backstab might succeed ("backstab!") but is followed by "missed!", causing no damage. The missed probability is around 10% before level 9 daggers. It seems the rogue is very inept at using his daggers, only surpassed by the missing rate of bows up to an yet undetermined level of Archery.
But before these two failures comes the "feature" that only says: "You are no longer stealthed" apparently because the creature is facing some invisible direction.
If it's a feature, there should be a warning in the players guide that the rogue is a seriously hindered creature in mysterious ways. |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 10, 2008 - 12:10 PM
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Royalty
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
Posts: 1589
Location: Who likes Maine anyway?
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| Glad you pointed out the bugged backstab, and the missed backstab. The Bugged one just sort of doesn't work. You attack the creature from behind, and it's just a normal attack. The missed backstab will still paralyze a paralyzeable creature, it just don't do any damage. |
_________________
"The Mirith Vanguard: We go until your sides hurt"
"We just spent 10 million on a a way to turn a character ginger, we can buy you a chest" - Iceane
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 02:47 PM
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Developer
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Posts: 418
Status: Offline
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| I am aware that Backstab in its current form is bugged and exploitable. It will be changed not to require stealth, and even to be doable more than one time on a given creature. |
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Memories...
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 04:59 PM
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Spammer
Joined: Jan 11, 2007
Posts: 2250
Location: Jinker's Basement
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| Woah, if it is changed like that you might want to reduce the damage a bit. |
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"Unable to love each other, the English turn naturally to dogs." - J R Ackerley
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 06:24 PM
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Royalty
Joined: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 1117
Location: World of Warcraft
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Maybe backstab without stealth could give little less damage than backstab with stealth. Maybe its not even needed (especially if rogues HPs would stay on current amount), Im not rogue and without seeing such idea in reality I cant judge it. Anyway I like it.
As I wrote in past, I would (in context with current Stefan's topic) even like if stealthed backstab would work from any direction. So when we adventure with rogue, we dont have to adjust our play just to let him attack. Without stealth only from backs. |
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I'M A DRUID AND THUS I'M OVERPOWERED! >:C
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 06:39 PM
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Respectable
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 213
Status: Offline
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Are you that impressed by the damage?!!
I'm not impressed by the damage. Visibly less then any wizards bolt, and no mana pots to do it again! As it is now, considering the complexity of the manoeuver, way far more complex then any other in any other class, and 3 layers of failure involved, one shot per beast (failures included in the shot), almost unusable alone, I'm not impressed at all.
Some pets do as much or more damage then that in one bite, fighters do almost as much in each critical.
Much of the exploitable comes from desperation, the rogue is the weakest class, clearly, the dagger good to kill rats, the backstab of level 9 rogue kills ants in one blow (when it works), wow!
And before medium high level, a joke. Yes it's cool that "backstab!" on the screen, damage? BŁ!!?
Thank you Stefan for the acknowledgment. I rest my case. (Uff!)
But it would be nice and maybe useful a public discussion of what seems the least well cooked class in Oberin. |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 06:54 PM
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Respectable
Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 213
Status: Offline
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| davonsemris wrote: |
| So when we adventure with rogue, we dont have to adjust our play just to let him attack. Without stealth only from backs. |
I like that part, it seems to be part of the social aspect of the class.
Together with the cleric they are unique in that other players have to adjust and the rogue has to teach.
The "just to let him attack" seems to imply you are not impressed with the damage either. |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bumping: bug or feature?
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 07:00 PM
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Respectable
Joined: Oct 10, 2007
Posts: 164
Status: Offline
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Just to chime in, I'd love to see a bit of flexibility where Rogues can backstab while standing to the back and left or back and right of the target (not just straight back).
Didn't know that backstab paralyzed (good for groups) and that it can only be done once per creature (wow, rogues are getting screwed)... |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 07:23 PM
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Royalty
Joined: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 1117
Location: World of Warcraft
Status: Offline
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| Zarco wrote: |
| davonsemris wrote: |
| The "just to let him attack" seems to imply you are not impressed with the damage either. |
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Lets say that the result (especially in bigger groups when there are all the fighters, mages etc.) is often not worth of adjusting the play. Fight is won with or without backstab... And I dont want to listen move here or there, recall pet!!! When it really doesnt matter in result.
It can hardly be different though - I mean I can hardly imagine that rogue would be so strong he would be major power in this group and everyone would willingly serve him. So actually only thing which would made me adjust my own play is my personal liking of that rogue - I would do it for him/her, not for the result.
I know that for me personally backstab from any direction would be awesome. Again, its just my view and I know rogues whom doesnt order anyone around and do awesome job.
(And there is easy solution for me - dont adventure with rogues which are not your friends and which tell you what you should do.) |
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I'M A DRUID AND THUS I'M OVERPOWERED! >:C
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 14, 2008 - 08:45 PM
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Honorable
Joined: Jan 28, 2007
Posts: 287
Status: Offline
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If I were to hazard a guess as to why Rogues are so difficult and offensively challenged; I would have to say that along with Clerics, they are indispensable on major hunts. Whether it be RTQs where chests tend to pop up. Or dangerous dungeons where the loot is worth the risk. And because they are indispensable, it is probably considered unbalance that they be star players offensively. Rogues pay a lot for their picking skills.
Wizards, Rangers, Fighters, and Druids can be interchangeable to some degree. Sometimes to a very large degree. But nothing but a Cleric and Rogue can do what they do, so they always get to come along.
However, while it is always true: the more Clerics the merrier. You only really need one Rogue at a time. And there is the rub. How do you balance an indispensable Class that there isn't a high demand for?
If they start being competitive with the other four classes, damage-wise, should they also be allowed to remain indispensable as well?
In some ways it is an unfair question. Certainly Clerics, it can be argued, already do more damage than Rogues with their reflect spells. But that depends on what monster is being reflected.
It seems a difficult task. All I can say is: I am glad I am not the one who has to figure it out.
Sincerely,
Lord Stryker |
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