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�ｸ邁 2 ﾇﾃﾉﾅﾉ�ﾉoﾅ[ ﾉIﾉ�ﾉ篷Cﾉ�..
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Post subject: Wider variety of weapon resistances & weaknesses (rambli
 Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 16:47 EST
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Noble
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 734
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"Look there is a XXXXXXXXX terrorizing the Mirith bank!"
"Hold on, we'll get a fighter and a cleric. It'll be gone in a minute."
I think one of the reasons why Oberin is flooded with Fighter-Cleric pairs and few true "group" hunts is that there are very few questions in Oberin that don't have the same answer.
When I was playing Magic: The Gathering professionally many years ago, a hallmark of deck design was that you either had more answers in your deck than your opponent had questions, or more questions than your opponent could answer.
When I think in terms of the fauna of Oberin, "Cleric plus Fighter holding a CoP" is an answer for 99% of what we see. You can successfully dispatch nearly every creature in Oberin under level 12 with that pairing. What a surprise, the countryside winds up full of fighter-cleric pairs.
We have very few, if any, creatures that ask a different question...
Contrast that with the Ranger's Short Bow and Arrows. We have several creatures in the landscape with built-in resistance to arrows (Skeleton, Bracken, etc).
Why not tweak some of the existing monsters so that they are asking new questions and requiring new answers? Make some creatures more vulnerable to arrows and less vulnerable to clubs and katanas. Make some monsters vulnerable to daggers and resistant to other weapons. Adjust some creatures to be vulnerable to poles but resistant to one-hand weapons (think in terms of their vulnerable body parts being 10 feet in the air). Make some creature disorient its opponent with its physical attack (requiring the fighter-cleric combo to seek a new strategy). Enhance the current vulnerabilities and resistances to frost and fire so that it actually makes sense to use such weapons. Adjust some creatures to be more vulnerable to certain pet bites (low poison resistance but high RM, etc). Expand the ability of summoning (have Dragons summon Elementals as part of their "breath")
Yes, I am rambling... But I think the fundamental thought here is clear... If the monsters in the wild ask different questions, the player base will bring different answers...
"Look! There is a XXXXXXXXXX terrorizing the Mirith bank!"
"Ok, we've already got two fighters and two clerics here but we're gonna need a Ranger to shoot the XXXXX, and a Rogue to stab the XXXXX, and once it starts summoning its little XXXXXXX friends, we are definitely going to want a Druid around. Get on the horn, we need some backup!" |
_________________
"Remember... No Dragon has ever cared how skilled you are at Tracking, Bandaging, or Potion-Making."
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Post subject: RE: Wider variety of weapon resistances & weaknesses (ra
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 18:11 EST
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Royalty
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 1062
Location: In a Dark Forest...
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You forgot about wizards... :'(
But seriously, this needs to happen, Other classes need to be relied upon besides just the fighter and cleric. In addition, there should be some things that a fighter has to run from other that a rust beast. Each class should be needed in some way and have somethings they can't kill alone. Also, all monsters seem to act the same way... |
_________________
"It's the pixies. They are playing with your mind. They do that." - Gawr
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Post subject: RE: Wider variety of weapon resistances & weaknesses (ra
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 18:29 EST
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Noble
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| I can't count how many times the other classes have been more of an asset to the so called fighter-cleric combo. ID is a perfect example of that. Any class is of great benefit fighting SGs and has proven to be a lot of fun. At least with the groups I have been with. The last hunt I was on was in Liz Fort we had the fighter, rogue, cleric, ranger and a wizard class and just before that we had a druid. I dont know how many fighter-cleric combos there are in Obie now that can take out level 12 creatures but I don't think Oberin is flooded with them. And for those who can its because we worked hard on getting there and don't think its that easy. That being said I still like Clems ideas. |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 19:44 EST
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Noble
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And because we all know that the cleric/fighter combo is the counterspell of Oberin...
I believe I explored something similar, so I'll post it here for viewing pleasure.
| Teleco wrote: |
The role of the classes
What defines what class you need to hunt? The creatures. Which classes are most useful is determined by what you need to fight. This is why clerics and fighters have such a massive role during hunts, every creature deals damage (need a cleric), every creature needs to be killed (need a fighter), you need something that creatures can attack so that clerics don't die (need a tank (ie fighter)).
Now, this is actually relatively easy to fix by introducing creatures that parties need other classes to deal with. As it currently is a fighter/cleric combo can kill anything in Oberin with such great ease that it's not even fun anymore. I won't talk about class balancing just yet, but rather class utility. So with introduction of creatures such as ones that are highly resistant to physical but are weak to magical and deal a lot of physical damage but low magical damage. The creature I just described would create a situation where you need a wizard and a fighter to beat it, you could take it to another extreme and make it deadly and weak to arrows to involve rangers.
So as you can see from the example above it's not that hard to create an interesting creature, you can shake it up, in fact myself and others have proposed loads of interesting creatures already.
I was talking over AIM to Laricen about creatures recently, a creature needs to be challenging. A creature that sits there and lets itself be torn apart by 2-3 fighters whilst a cleric heals them is not challenging or fun in my eyes, it gets boring after a year.
"But Teleco, you keep saying that creatures suck, surely there must be a good creature out of all of these!" There is in fact, and this might not be a surprise to many of you, but I consider the Bone Mage(there are some other of course, magma golem being one, but it encourages clerics so...) to be the most interesting/challenging/fun creature to go up against. What I believe is a good creature is one that you know you can beat but you have to use some tactics to do it. All the creatures in Oberin are the same, some even just recoloured. I think that bringing uniqueness to creatures will make the game a lot more interesting. And it doesn't stop there you can make creatures soooo interesting, but uhm, I'll stop now before I get carried away with "awesome creature ideas." |
So yeah, I'm all for it, especially changing existing creatures. However, I would warn going down the sword/axe/pole route, because it would just become annoying to have to change weapons which are attributed to one class. |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 20:21 EST
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Spammer
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 1275
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| Regarding weapons, I see no harm in making some creatures more vulnerable to one type of weapon than another. It would be up to the individual whether they wanted (or had room) to carry a wide variety of weapons to ensure they could kill each monster as swiftly as possible. It seems unlikely that they would, in general. As to the rest, we've had soooo many posts about this now. Several people have outlined why making things more vulnerable to classes other than Fighters is a good thing, and why big strong brutes should have to stand back sometimes and let others do the killing. A wide variety of new monster types that might address this have been suggested. I think this is one topic that should be at the forefront of any questions for the proposed podcast/interview. It's not so much that other classes can't kill things, but it IS certainly true that most of the time, a Fighter being healed by a Cleric will simply kill them faster. Or so it seems to me. And look at the truly high-level monsters: which class has most impact on SG, IG, MG, Dragons and even Lich (though this last one might be better dealt with by other classes. We just rarely get a chance to find out)? Fighters. A single Cleric and a single Fighter can take most of these out. A high-level Wizard, even an extremely high-level Wizard, can hardly damage most of them, so far as I can see. |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 22:43 EST
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Royalty
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 1062
Location: In a Dark Forest...
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| Yes, Wizards can hardly damage any high level creatures. A few that can be poisoned, they can lure one to kill at a time, but other then that and that shear amount of time it takes, they can hardly damage things their level. When hunting the highest level creatures wizards end up becoming para machines, and get yelled at for casting anything else. |
_________________
"It's the pixies. They are playing with your mind. They do that." - Gawr
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 10�� (�) - 22:54 EST
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Royalty
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Posts: 1466
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| All of the creatures mentioned have high RM and high AR... Maybe it was to make it hard for any class, although of course it isn't that hard anymore unless it's a few MGs(which has happened before). I agree that there should be a few creatures that are resistant to melee and are vulnerable to magic apart from RBs. There should also be a few creatures who have a lot of health, but are vulnerable to both melee and magic, that way just about all classes can fight it at the same time and do decent damage. |
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Dracilus:Insane until proven crazy.
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 00:34 EST
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Noble
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 506
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| Teleco. Who are these cleric/fighter combo's that can kill ANYTHING with great ease? And what exactly is not fun anymore? Stop speaking for everyone in Obie. And maybe a few fighters with a cleric can tear up a creature that sits there, not sure what creature does that, but wth do you expect? Some of us fighters have tried to become stronger and better and now its wrong? Its boring? I know for a fact other classes teamed together can tear down creatures that "just sit there" just fine. Btw fighters aren't so tough now with almost 50% of there critical hits gone. I'm not opposed at all to Clem's idea. But its a misconception that only fighters and clerics can accomplish the impossible. Ya we are strong after long hours and weeks and months and a few years of trying our best to get there. But so are the other people who have done the same with there class. I don't have to name them because we all know who they are. |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 04:07 EST
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Honorable
Joined: �呻t腟
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people are talking about creatures being more vulnerable to certain weapons, but i'm confused. hasn't that been happening since the early days? back when i first started, i'm sure there were fighters that used different weapons against different monsters. though maybe the effect needs to be more obvious?
as for fighter + cleric combo, i don't get that either. couldn't ranger + cleric do pretty much anything fighter + cleric can do? even druid + pet + cleric, or to a lesser extent, rogue + cleric. hell, even cleric + cleric, if both of the clerics were shogun. (sorry wizards :P)
| Quote: |
| "Ok, we've already got two fighters and two clerics here but we're gonna need a Ranger to shoot the XXXXX, and a Rogue to stab the XXXXX, and once it starts summoning its little XXXXXXX friends, we are definitely going to want a Druid around. Get on the horn, we need some backup!" |
see, this is actually something i'm not sure about. i'm worried that, if you feel like you need a certain class to do with some stuff, people won't be as willing to hunt if they don't have that class with them. with our shrinking player base, i don't like the idea of anything that makes it harder for small hunting parties to just go out and kill.
of course, it's different if these more dependent monsters are only found in RTQs and harder dungeons, that's something i would like to see.
(just for the record, i've been in plenty of small groups without a fighter or cleric, and still had no trouble killing everything we've come across just fine. hell, i've owned marali woods with just two rangers by my side) |
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300 raw steaks on the wall!
300 raw steaks!
you take one down,
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299 raw steaks on the wall!!
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 04:17 EST
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Royalty
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 2091
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I love hunting without clerics. And without fighters, druids, rogues, or rangers. Actually, I love duos above all, no matter the class. But everyone knows that by now.
However, when I want to go to: MariRangers, Skull Island, Volcano (second level), Ice Dungeon, Lava Dungeon, Crausaar's Descent, top levels of the Tower, Duldrus, or bottom level of Aborek (that one I can always try to run through and pray, sure), I always end up waiting a minimum of 3 hours, sometimes a whole week, because it's not possible without clerics and fighters. If a rogue is missing, or a wizard, or a ranger, all keeps going. But not without these two. And more of each is always fine, whereas more of the others becomes a crowd.
I think that's what is meant by "the game (or at least its dungeons) is made for the combo." And I am ignoring the TM on purpose, since you have room to avoid the dragon or to lure it to water. But any other dungeon can be done with the combination of those. As any other area of the map, really.
I hope it's a bit clearer now, and not offensive.  |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 04:44 EST
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Royalty
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 2091
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*double posts*
Mind you, I also think that fighters/clerics are the least versatile class. Clerics, are a nightmare to hunt with, unless one accepts to tank (or they accept to hide and mix potions rather than healing); and fighters, as Crom said elsewhere, can't run across things that easily (and even less now with specials demanding them to stand still all the time).
So, sure, they have drawbacks, but I believe the point here is that they are still the most effective to fight most things, when together. |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 04:55 EST
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Noble
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And please don't get me wrong, I enjoy alternate pairings nearly as much as Cass does. I've been involved in plenty of Hill Giant hunts with no cleric at all. In fact, I have personally participated in Hill Giant hunts of:
Wiz-Wiz, Wiz-Rog, Wiz-Dru, Wiz-Fig, Fig-Rog, and Fig-Dru... all as two-player hunts with no cleric present... (and I know of friends who do just fine with the Rog-Dru pairing as well)...
But I think the easy way to look at a "solution" is to reverse-engineer the problem. What stops a Fighter-Cleric combo from being successful?
Disorientation of the Fighter
More than 6 simultaneous opponents
Paralysis of the Cleric
Curses on the cleric
Ranged attacks on the Cleric that ignore return fire from the Fighter
Multi-tile Fire Fields
So a few samples of creatures that would be difficult for the Cleric-Fighter pair:
Archers that maintain a distance (similar to Gapers)
Any creature that Disorients its target when making a physical attack
Any creature with a Curse Field spell
Any creature with the ability to summon multiple Fire Fields around itself
Any Creature that summons non-undead (even a creature that summons 8 rats at a time would be a pain in the butt for a Cleric-Fighter pair)
Most of these have "answers" in the other classes, ie Rangers and Wizards (and Druids) for the Archers; Rangers and Druids (and potentially Wizards depending on the RM) for the creature that Disorients; the Curse Field opponent would be a mess for anything but a Rogue or Ranger; Rangers and Druids (assuming the right pet) would be logical choices against the Fire Fielding opponent; Wizards and Druids would both excel against the Rat Summoner...
I am not directly suggesting any of these specific options (though I think a few of them have merit). Rather I am suggesting a line of development that I think would be appropriate. |
_________________
"Remember... No Dragon has ever cared how skilled you are at Tracking, Bandaging, or Potion-Making."
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 05:55 EST
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Honorable
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| *claps* now that's a much better way to look at the problem! <3 |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 11�� (�y) - 10:32 EST
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Noble
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 617
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I like the direction of the idea, but again, I must warn, what you are proposing aren't inconveniences to the combo, they are things that kill them outright. Introducing those kinds of things don't make it challenging, they are just death machines, there needs to be a balance between a creature being deadly and another class being able to deal with it more efficiently. Taking the RB as an example, a fighter is still able to kill it, however it must inconvenience itself to do so, that is where I think lies the balance.
EDIT: Yes, I realise you made that point, just thought I should emphasise it. |
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Post subject:
Posted: 2010琮 12裨 12�� (��) - 05:15 EST
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Honorable
Joined: �呻t腟
Posts: 445
Location: In the time between times.
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| Teleco wrote: |
Taking the RB as an example, a fighter is still able to kill it, however it must inconvenience itself to do so, that is where I think lies the balance.
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Actually, I tend to fight the RBs so the plates (including Crom) don't have to bother with them unless they want to. Incidentally, they usually do..... So, I only get to kill them if I am alone.
^^ |
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Australopithecus would really have been sick of us.
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